Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

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newrubble
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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by newrubble »

tujuan japanese brand localizing di low developing market bukan cuma cost wise

bikin low compliance products u thirdworld market krn product liability regime di japan membolekan itu

low compliance products, never exist JDM / premium market ... kalo ada occurrence (production/design fault ending up with injuries) jgn harap bisa prosecute di japanese court

mana bisa US / EU brands bgitu ... smua wajip global std sehingga selama product itu masih factory std n ada occurrence dimanapun (meski tdk ada brand agency n dipakai diluar domestic market saat kejadian) ... tetap bisa prosecute di US / EU forums ... kalo brani bikin non-global std ... sy jamin mrk bs kena xtra prosecution ... discrimination n ini wang besar (bisa tutup satu fabriek selamanya)

krn itulah bgt susah u US / EU brands appoint local sbg vendor
ongisnade
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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by ongisnade »

alvin23 wrote:
bapakne_satya wrote:
Spoonful wrote:Balik lagi ngomongin definisi reliable.
Ada yang bilang reliabel = bisa dipake kapan aja dengan maintenance seadanya. Ada juga yang bilang reliabel = yang penting nggak sering mogok mendadak.
Dan sayangnya, berdasarkan yang ane sering liat di forum2 maupun everywhere else over the internet, kebanyakan sumbernya dari anecdotal evidence. [i.e. "I changed oil in my Civic every 10000-15000 miles, and it still drives like new!" or "This Pug is nothing but electrical gremlins!"]
Dan dari pengalaman sendiri maupun orang lain, ane cuma bisa setuju sama satu hal, semua barang bakalan reliabel kalo dipelihara dengan bener.
Balik lagi, 'pelihara dengan benar' itu beda2 tiap mobil. Bisa ganti oli seingetnya (typical Japs), ganti beberapa parts yang berhubungan dengan mesin, chassis dan electrical tiap beberapa ribu km tapi nggak sampe turun mesin (typical 'reliable' Europeans?), sampe constantly rebuilt (rotary). Mau sebandel apapun mobil kalo ngerawatnya nggak bener pasti rewel juga. Pengalaman? Bokap beberapa kali ganti mobil selama 20 tahun terakhir, due to lack of proper maintenance, cuma Carry sama Kijang yang bisa dibilang bener2 trouble free--sisanya ada aja yang kayak lemons, padahal Japs semua. :)
Kalau di kerjaan saya, ada beberapa indikator yang bisa dipake untuk mengukur reliability secara kuantitatif:
- Plant availability factor - kapasitas aktual dibagi kapasitas rencana kerja
- Service factor - hari operasi dibagi hari kalender
- Utilization factor - kapasitas aktual dibagi kapasitas design
- Mean time to repair - waktu rata-rata untuk melaksanakan perbaikan
- Mean time between failure - waktu rata-rata di antara 2 kerusakan
- Unscheduled shutdown days - durasi stop operasi yang tidak direncanakan

Belum lagi kalau bicara failure mode suatu peralatan: peralatan listrik/sensor2 biasanya dalam waktu tertentu (sesuai lifetimenya) akan langsung koit ; peralatan yang berputar akan mengalami infant failure di awal pengoperasiannya (start awal motor misalnya) dan akan ada kecenderungan menurun performancenya dengan berjalannya waktu, dst

Memang banyak persepektif dan ukuran sih, makanya kalau ngomongin reliability tanpa ukuran kuantitatif ya bisa potensi bias (belum tentu salah ; belum tentu benar).

IMO, term and condition apply (halah, opo iki)
wah ini pasti orang plant nih.... :mky_03: bagian maintenance, :big_smoking:
Wah ini sepertinya aliran MM nya SKF.....
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Re: RE: Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by ecoy »

newrubble wrote:tujuan japanese brand localizing di low developing market bukan cuma cost wise

bikin low compliance products u thirdworld market krn product liability regime di japan membolekan itu

low compliance products, never exist JDM / premium market ... kalo ada occurrence (production/design fault ending up with injuries) jgn harap bisa prosecute di japanese court

mana bisa US / EU brands bgitu ... smua wajip global std sehingga selama product itu masih factory std n ada occurrence dimanapun (meski tdk ada brand agency n dipakai diluar domestic market saat kejadian) ... tetap bisa prosecute di US / EU forums ... kalo brani bikin non-global std ... sy jamin mrk bs kena xtra prosecution ... discrimination n ini wang besar (bisa tutup satu fabriek selamanya)

krn itulah bgt susah u US / EU brands appoint local sbg vendor
Berarti semua mobil US/EU brand yg beredar di indo standar global om?meskipun produknya gk d jual global om?

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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by newrubble »

betul ... misal ada sesuatu yg bikin celaka krn pemakaian chevy spin ...bisa prosecute di US
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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by Xous »

Meskipun itu mbl tipe lama om. Cth ud diskontinue d usa sana spt escape pas beredar d indo, inget ane brg lama itu.
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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by newrubble »

under US / EU product liability is 15years as of:

(each unit) rolled out from assembly line (when everything is factory installed) so the oldest year make under this coverage is a 2001 model n lineup; or

cause of occurrence attached to an ill-fated unit installed by authorized workshop
(ex: in 2016 an brake failure related accident occurred on a USDM1991 ford explorer with brake set replacement installed in 2005 by fordworkshop jakarta. the unit shipped to jakarta in 1994 for diplomatic use and it was then being used in factory std condition and by local privateer at the time of occurrence ... and had been regularly maintained by fordworkshop jakarta until the occurrence)

kalo aircraft itu 18years coverage under the abovementioned rule
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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by ecoy7 »

@om NR, apa indo itu trmasuk thirdworld market?klo ya apa bener mobil japs low compliance d indo?klo ya knp banyak yg bilang mobil japs realible krn maintenance sekedarnya tetep ok klo jalan.

Klo mobil japs yg d buat d EU/US apa pake standar domestik di sana?apa sm realiblenya yg d produksi d sana jika d banding domestik indo?

Low compliance utk thirdworld apa berlaku jg utk produk japs lain selain mobil?

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newrubble
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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by newrubble »

ya betul u technical spec indo automotive masuk low to medium thirdworld.

japanese brand yg reliable umumnya locally ckd yg menyesuaikan dgn average local behavior, sulphuric level fuel serta local level aftersales mechanical tools and skills. Byk hal yg blm perlu itu tdk dipasang sehingga aftersales costs juga terpengaruh n ini sdh sy jelaskan diatas

technical spec japanese automotive products for indo (local CKD n asean/indian/south korean CBU) occupies same level with those dedicated for bangladesh, nigerian n black-african (non-southafrican) markets

used japanese trainset for export to indo subject to modification to:
-shorter axle width;
-lower braking system tech (originally: sensoric and regenerative pneumatic full magnetic system) to non-sensoric electromagnetic direct braking system (magnetic braking yg berfungsi dari arus listrik yg ada)

battery products for indo market masih pakai lead content sulphuric acid sedangkan JDM, EU and other prime markets sdh pakai water-based organic acid

begitu juga textile production indo masih blm pakai high level eco friendly components, chemical content yg bgt tinggi seperti hal rust-proofing products for indo market masih gunakan racun racun terbaik yg ada di planet ini sehingga dijamin metal panel apapun yg ada di indo tdk akan bolong / busuk bila ditimbun dalam tanah

global spec for US and EU automotive products itu pakai superseded / previous US or EU technical std.yg tetap high cost bila locally manufactured in / specifically customized CBU for indo
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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by imsus2c »

DOHC wrote:meneer imsus...

kl skur klep gt, sebnernya selaen di bersihin kerak di klep, trus di apain lg sehh...

sempet kepikiran mau skur klep ipah ane jg, cuman stelah buka intake manifold dan bersih2 pake cairan carbon spirit gt, ud rontok smua kerak nya...
Kalau jeroan masih normal sih ya ngga ngapa2in lagi :D
Ya memang tujuan utamanya sih deep cleaning/maintenance.
Bersihin pakai carbon spirit gitu memang bagus, tapi saya cukup yakin ngga sebersih kalau turun head, imo yah :D
si vis pacem para bellum - si vis bellum para pacem - si vis pacem para pactum
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imsus2c
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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by imsus2c »

maskopat wrote:ninggalin jejak yaa meneer...

ane gak paham tentang reliability kendaraan tuh apaan parameternya.
yang seru tret kek gini kalo ada om FM dan Risol1. keluar semua list data2 reliability (terutama boyota)... hehehe
Siap meneer,

Ik jg heran makanya tanya disini, kenapa persepsi umum (=awam) Japs lebih reliable :D
Di post#1, sesuai pengalaman diy dan semi diy bongkar2 mobil (terutama mesin), masih belum nemu apa sih yg membuat anggapan Japs lebih reliable.
Toh kalau misal ada org nanya mau beli mobil, umumnya disarankan ambil Japs, yg alasan utamanya salah satunya ya lbh reliable tadi...
si vis pacem para bellum - si vis bellum para pacem - si vis pacem para pactum
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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by imsus2c »

newrubble wrote: begitu juga textile production indo masih blm pakai high level eco friendly components, chemical content yg bgt tinggi seperti hal rust-proofing products for indo market masih gunakan racun racun terbaik yg ada di planet ini sehingga dijamin metal panel apapun yg ada di indo tdk akan bolong / busuk bila ditimbun dalam tanah
Betul om NR, saya mengalami juga utk produk2 dari tempat kerja saya.
Semua yg berhubungan dgn direct contact dgn manusia, semakin diperketat.
Contohnya untuk cat (coating), saat ini utk market Eropa (barat), buyer2 di tempat saya kerja udh mensyaratkan harus pakai waterborne.
Solvent-borne apalagi yg ada asam-nya (acid) bener2 ngga boleh.

Padahal teknologi saat ini, waterborne coating ini setengah mati aplikasinya. Belum harganya yg relatif lebih mahal.
Udh begitu, end result-nya juga belum bisa setara (durability dan finish quality) coating solvent-borne
si vis pacem para bellum - si vis bellum para pacem - si vis pacem para pactum
de gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum
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newrubble
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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by newrubble »

sy masih ingat timber products of itci-kartika utama (sebelum di beli prabowo n headoffice pasarminggu jadi gerindra hq) bgt byk yg reject di japanese entryports ...n ini yg kmudian jadi makanan farid amir (owner skolah highscope skrg)

eco labeling level yg non-fully compliance itu sebabnya

pdhl saat itci masih under weyenhaeuser lancar lancar sj itci timber product masuk JDM n USDM ...dg eco label.level n spec sama spt detik ini

juga fishery products indo (sy pernah handle kes ini) dr indo yg post inspection rejected by JDM food authority krn ampicilin blended to meet JDM freshness level ... demi irit es batu plus in-shipment electricity cost yg harganya lbh mahal drpd chemical ampicilin ... ahirnya yg beli ... zhonghuan buyers ... itupun trans-ship di tengah laut
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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by phakbola »

Just wanna take this opportunity to say thank you om newrubble for all the enlightment that you have given us in this forum. Please continue to share with us your vast knowledge and experiences :thanks:
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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by ecoy7 »

Thanks om NR

Mungkin yg d bilang realible krn dgn maintenance sekedarnya msh tetep bs jalan tuh mobil walaupun mobilnya dah lemot, shock bocor yg bw tetep gk merasa, lampu ada yg mati gk tau krn gk ada sensor or indikator yg nyala. Apa mungkin krn yg bw mobil careless, menganggap mobilnya sekuat tank, gk punya duit buat ngerawat mobil yg penting msh tetep bs jalan. So lets ride.

Setelah bc2 komen2 d SM ttg innova n avanza saya jd pikir2 ambil seken innova avanza krn anggap ini mobil perang beneran jd low maintenace, bawanya main sikat aja yg penting msh bs jalan, takutnya pas sdh d beli jd penyakitan krn sakitnya yg dulu gk d obatin jd tinggal ampasnya aja.

Klo menurut om NR bagaimana dgn mazda d indo?apa jg low compliance?



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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by newrubble »

maz two indo itu cbu japan dg global spec (non-jdm) artinya smua pemakaian ultra high tensile steel sama persis dg yg dipakai pd mazda two jdm previous model (400, 750, 1,100 mpa vs current steel.spec use 440, 780, 1,140mpa)

lower spec than jdm / EU current model yg disini i-stop n engine-on/off ada di smua trim levels ... 9 airbags itu wajip disini ... bgitu juga towhook catche di bawah bumper blk meski towhook piece masih optional ...headlamp waterspray set itu juga harus ada disini ... seatbelt failure alert disini akan bunyi kenceng skitar 35db in-cabin bgt lupa pakai pada speed mulai 15km (yg indo sy pernah test itu baru mulai bunyi saat speed 35km) dan akan sampai 50db noise bunyinya saat speed makin tinggi n itu tetap tdk dipakai dan disini smua sensor n alert system akan tercatat dlm vehicle control system yg terpasang di dalam mobil n akan dibuka / dibaca oleh insurance n loss adjuster saat mobil abis kecelakaan

bgt juga electric heating cable u radiator juga hrs tapi ini krn disini kita ada winter n akan beku radiator kalo tdk di hangatkan dulu air di dalamnya sblm engine start
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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by imsus2c »

Bicara design-wise untuk hal teknik yg simple...

Saya perhatikan bbrp mobil tua eropa, rata2 pasang radiator fan-nya di depan radiator (push).
Kalau mobil2 Japs, rata2 di belakang radiator (pull).

Semakin kesini, mobil2 eropa nampaknya juga pakai model pull (belakang radiator).

Sebenarnya posisi radiator fan antara model push atau pull, efektifitas/efisiensi-nya sama ngga sih?
Dulu pernah baca trid dimana gitu, konon yg model pull (dipasang di belakang radiator) lebih efektif
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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by octafiantos »

Eropa lama 80-90s Bmw, Benz dobel om. Yang ada di depan, extra fan kondensor untuk ac yang idup saat ac on. Kipasnya dual speed biasanya. Saat air temp naik lewat 92°, extra fan hidup hi speed bantu dinginin radiator. Engine viscous fannya tetep idup, pelqn kencengnya ngikutin viskositas oli.

Baru ke sini2 aja yang hanya andelin electric engine fan penuh. Kalo di Bmw mesin kecil dari 97 (318i). Mesin 6cyl tetep dobel. Baru generasi E60 (2005an) yang murni elektrik.

Efektivitasnya kurang paham. Tapi yang mulai elektrik fan penuh desain radiator dan kondensornya berjarak lebih besar dari yang lama. Dan mssih dibantu desain sirip yang bisa kebuka tutup mirip flap di bagian depan kondensor.

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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by maskopat »

kemarin ngobrol dengan seorang supir yang bos nya punya defender lwb.
ada 2 kasus. kasus pertama, anak kunci mobil nyangkut di rumah kunci. gak bisa dicabut setelah mobil dipanasi. sudah dicoba dengan nyemprotin penetran dan panggil tukang kunci (yang manggil dari beres landrover) tetap gak bisa dicabut anak kuncinya. akhirnya ganti rumah kunci dan anaknya. total biaya sekitar 7 jt... :big_bored:

kasus kedua, karena ganti kunci, head unit ter-lock. via telepon dipandu oleh beres LR. masukin pin yang ada tetap gak mau. email2an ke LR pusat (mungkin di UK) dikasih pin yang sama, gak mau juga. sampe dikira beres HU sudah diganti.
akhirnya bisa juga setelah nomor pin dibalik urutannya... :big_grin:

nah ini masuk kategori reliable kah?
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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by jivos »

maskopat wrote:kemarin ngobrol dengan seorang supir yang bos nya punya defender lwb.
ada 2 kasus. kasus pertama, anak kunci mobil nyangkut di rumah kunci. gak bisa dicabut setelah mobil dipanasi. sudah dicoba dengan nyemprotin penetran dan panggil tukang kunci (yang manggil dari beres landrover) tetap gak bisa dicabut anak kuncinya. akhirnya ganti rumah kunci dan anaknya. total biaya sekitar 7 jt... :big_bored:

kasus kedua, karena ganti kunci, head unit ter-lock. via telepon dipandu oleh beres LR. masukin pin yang ada tetap gak mau. email2an ke LR pusat (mungkin di UK) dikasih pin yang sama, gak mau juga. sampe dikira beres HU sudah diganti.
akhirnya bisa juga setelah nomor pin dibalik urutannya... :big_grin:

nah ini masuk kategori reliable kah?
Ngga reliable pastinya om,

Urusan sepele, kunci ngga mw ditarik. Total damage cost 7 jeti krn satu set rmh kunci terpaksi diganti. Digit pin code audio saja, hrs input terbalik dr bawaannya :big_dunno:
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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by alvin23 »

itu tandanya mainan horang kayah sejati
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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by newrubble »

utk kes landy def hrs diliat apakah unit mobil masih under factory warranty ... disini itu lima tahun limited

di manualbook bisa dibaca terms n conditions ... hrsnya kalo mobil baru blm lima thn itu ganti gratis ... kunci mobil juga tdk bole masuk kantong apalagi backpocket ... bs hancur itu

hrsnya yg diganti bukan hanya key set tapi juga supir nya ...

sy jaman punya vw transporter t5 juga punya problem dg entertainment set (blaupunkt rcd320) security coding n local dealer jakarta swapped dg unit lain bgt kena systemic error
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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by Harchi »

Mantap penjelasan om rubble. Klo japs dibilang lebih populer, mgkn yg dicompare japs level jelata vs europe level atas. Klo sesama full spec ane rasa gak gitu. Ane ada pengalaman pribadi pake crown royal saloon 3.0 s130 thn 96, benar2 menguras kantong, image toyota yg reliable bener2 lenyap di mobil ini, rewel lah pokoknya. Ane ganti dgn merc 300e w124 thn 92, kayak bumi n langit dibanding crown dlm urusan reliability. Skrg udah balik lagi pake mobil japs kelas jelata ya emang bener2 reliable klo ini
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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by maskopat »

newrubble wrote:utk kes landy def hrs diliat apakah unit mobil masih under factory warranty ... disini itu lima tahun limited

di manualbook bisa dibaca terms n conditions ... hrsnya kalo mobil baru blm lima thn itu ganti gratis ... kunci mobil juga tdk bole masuk kantong apalagi backpocket ... bs hancur itu

hrsnya yg diganti bukan hanya key set tapi juga supir nya ...

sy jaman punya vw transporter t5 juga punya problem dg entertainment set (blaupunkt rcd320) security coding n local dealer jakarta swapped dg unit lain bgt kena systemic error
hah!? kunci mobil gak boleh masuk kantong? emang kenapa Om? :upss:

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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by sukribo »

maskopat wrote:
newrubble wrote:utk kes landy def hrs diliat apakah unit mobil masih under factory warranty ... disini itu lima tahun limited

di manualbook bisa dibaca terms n conditions ... hrsnya kalo mobil baru blm lima thn itu ganti gratis ... kunci mobil juga tdk bole masuk kantong apalagi backpocket ... bs hancur itu

hrsnya yg diganti bukan hanya key set tapi juga supir nya ...

sy jaman punya vw transporter t5 juga punya problem dg entertainment set (blaupunkt rcd320) security coding n local dealer jakarta swapped dg unit lain bgt kena systemic error
hah!? kunci mobil gak boleh masuk kantong? emang kenapa Om? :upss:

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Kalo duduknya gak pas... Bisa pain in the 4ss :big_biglaugh: :big_biglaugh: :big_biglaugh:
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Re: Kenapa Japs lebih reliable?

Post by newrubble »

landy def jaman skrg puma engine bgt manja u habitat sekelas indo ... dieselfuel buruk tdk bs

electronic coded key set tdk bs kena keringat apalagi kena duduk lama ... blm lagi kalo ada leaked / spill over frequency dr mobile phone jelek ... itu kmgkn key cylinder tdk mau full released krn salah satu catche-gear di dlm tdk respond

hrs copot dulu (whole unit dismantled)
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